| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Differences between translating, proofreading and editing - payment refusal by agency Thread poster: StefanR
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Karin Adamczyk (X) 
Canada
Local time: 19:24
French to English
| Certainly, but... | Feb 3, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 21:23, Mencar wrote:
If the other person understands, the service is rendered.
Agencies want John Doe to translate for them in order to pay them pennies aaah but they want John Doe to be the Caruso of the translation world. I call this blatant dishonesty and thievery. This kind of abuse is going on in many other fields of life, of course.
What ab... See more
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 21:23, Mencar wrote:
If the other person understands, the service is rendered.
Agencies want John Doe to translate for them in order to pay them pennies aaah but they want John Doe to be the Caruso of the translation world. I call this blatant dishonesty and thievery. This kind of abuse is going on in many other fields of life, of course.
What about translators who misrepresent their abilities or accept too much work and then cannot produce top quality.
As for agencies that want to pay pennies, why do you agree? If your work is worth more, you have to stick to your guns and demand an appropriate rate. If your work is good enough, you will get the rate you want.
I pay good rates and expect work that is of acceptable quality, in an appropriate style for the work in question, accurate and on time. I expect the translator to do the research required to find correct terminology and I help wherever I can. I expect to spend some time on revision, but I don\'t expect to have to retranslate. Is that too much to ask?
Karin Adamczyk ▲ Collapse
| | | | StefanR
Local time: 01:24
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Defining quality and standards - further thoughts | Feb 4, 2003 |
First of all, I\'d like to thank all of you for your comments, particularly Marc, Daniel, Karin and Erika.
To Marc: I\'m located in Germany and the agency as well and your suggestion on getting an arbitrator from a professional translators association sounds like a good idea.
Daniel brought up some valid points: part of the trouble is \"agreement\" between the translator, agency and the needs of the customer. One can assume what the standard or expected ... See more First of all, I\'d like to thank all of you for your comments, particularly Marc, Daniel, Karin and Erika.
To Marc: I\'m located in Germany and the agency as well and your suggestion on getting an arbitrator from a professional translators association sounds like a good idea.
Daniel brought up some valid points: part of the trouble is \"agreement\" between the translator, agency and the needs of the customer. One can assume what the standard or expected quality is, but factually it can only be established with excellent communication between all involved parties. Typos and grammar errors are obvious and not acceptable; style, tastes and personal preference of terminology are quite different matters. I just realized that I\'ve very good working relationships with my regular agencies and customers and each one of them has special wishes (some are real arbitraries) and I simply produce what they want and they are always happy with my work and they do pay. So, one is in fact dealing with a lot of variables. And one shouldn\'t confuse \"opinion\" with \"facts\".
Quality and agencies: I do believe that quality does depend on team effort. However, such a team would have to be well organized and each member would have to know his responsibilities. On the \"production-line\" of translator - proofreader - editor it\'s not always easy if you are a freelancer, since communication between these persons is often totally lacking, but with internet, email and all it would not be a problem.
Well, I also have agencies who require the final product, ready to be passed on to the customer, but it\'s agreed between both parties.
There are some points in the aforementioned agency\'s behavior which do make me suspicious: 12 days went by before the translation was actually passed on to the customer. However, \"only\" 20 h were spent on editing. This is according to the agency\'s own statement. It took myself 7 days to translate. I also got the impression that the job was urgent since the PM called me the day before the deadline to verify if I was going to meet it. Fact is that the work was delivered about 20 days after the customer\'s order. So one can\'t argue about meeting deadlines. I\'d have fixed up any errors within max. 2 days (not 12) on my own and using colleagues. There are facts which just don\'t add up and the behavior of the agency can be classified as \"covert\". Well, any criminal is acting in a covert way and they are not very talkative people. The main trouble with this agency is its total lack of communication at the proper point in time. They are just trying to confront me with already established facts, like a criminal, who is confronting one with the established facts after his deeds. They (agency) are also trying to get something for nothing, again like a criminal who steals. Well, there are too many similarities between the behavior of a criminal and this agency and I\'ll get all the facts and once established will act accordingly. Karin, Daniel and Marc, you have confirmed my think about the proper actions of an ethical agency when faced with errors (whether real or not) of freelancers.
In ending, I also believe or have experienced that 95% of the agencies and customers are easy to work with, it\'s a small minority who give us trouble.
ATB,
StefanR
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| | | | Karin Adamczyk (X)
Canada
Local time: 19:24
French to English
| Agency missing a critical element | Feb 4, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:00, StefanR wrote:
Quality and agencies: I do believe that quality does depend on team effort.
Absolutely!
There are some points in the aforementioned agency\'s behavior which do make me suspicious: 12 days went by before the translation was actually passed on to the customer. However, \"only\" 20 h were spent on editing.
... See more
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:00, StefanR wrote:
Quality and agencies: I do believe that quality does depend on team effort.
Absolutely!
There are some points in the aforementioned agency\'s behavior which do make me suspicious: 12 days went by before the translation was actually passed on to the customer. However, \"only\" 20 h were spent on editing.
In my opinion, and from what other colleagues have said, it is normal to expect to spend approximately 1 hour per 1,000 words in revision -- ALWAYS. Obviously this depends on the difficulty of the text, how much specific terminology is involved, how much reference info and help is provided, etc., etc.
It sounds to me like this agency is saying they should not have had to revise at all.
How can an agency worth its salt submit work to a client without checking it? This is true whether an agency is involved or if a translator sub-contracts work.
Good luck!
Karin ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 01:24
German to English
+ ...
Daniel, Karin et al,
By pointing out that under German law, the supplier has a second (and third!) opportunity to correct errors, I didn\'t mean to imply that this should be normal practice!
It is perhaps normal in the sense that the customer (final or agency) may have queries about the translation, and it is reasonable that the translator should be willing to discuss this. I find this happens frequently; in some cases it is routine - I have one particul... See more Daniel, Karin et al,
By pointing out that under German law, the supplier has a second (and third!) opportunity to correct errors, I didn\'t mean to imply that this should be normal practice!
It is perhaps normal in the sense that the customer (final or agency) may have queries about the translation, and it is reasonable that the translator should be willing to discuss this. I find this happens frequently; in some cases it is routine - I have one particular customer with whom I agree a date, before she has even read my text, on which we will discuss it. There is no implication in this that my work is sub-standard, and I think this arrangement is hugely beneficial for both parties.
From the description given here, it certainly seems as though the agency was acting unfairly and unethically, and I was pointing out that the agency is legally in the wrong. That does not automatically mean that the agency is *morally* in the wrong.
If you compare translators with other professionals, you will find that they are not generally judged by their results, but by whether they have followed good practice. Last summer, for example, I contracted glandular fever. Three doctors successively diagnosed this incorrectly (the third one got it right second time around). Do you think these doctors didn\'t send me an invoice for their incorrect diagnoses? Of course they did! I also take a generally sympathetic view of their error. The first doctor, for example, had diagnosed a completely different (and contagious) condition in another member of my household with exactly the same symptoms a few days previously, and concluded I had contracted it. Although I\'m not qualified to judge whether this is a reasonable medical error, I find it perfectly understandable as a layman and don\'t regard it as negligence. Needless to say, I settled the invoice.
The subject of standards is a very difficult one. I generally refer to the common product standard of \"fitness for intended purpose\". This is obviously open to broad interpretation, but it provides a basis upon which a neutral body can reach a decision in arbitration. Whatever definitions are drawn up, they are ultimately dependent upon third-party interpretation.
I believe that the translators\' associations could play a much stronger role here. I often hear that membership of this or that association is no proof of competence, but I\'m sure it would benefit the industry as a whole if the associations were more willing to assume the role of arbiters. Those translators who have professional membership would then be answerable to their associations, who in turn would be obliged to weed out the black sheep (excuse the mixed metaphor there).
On a day-to-day level though, these considerations are irrelevant. Openness and honesty about working practices and co-operation between the parties involved are the way to go.
Marc ▲ Collapse
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Andrei Albu
Romania
Local time: 02:24
Member (2002)
English to Romanian
+ ...
| I gave them one last chance to pay | Feb 4, 2003 |
Hello Steffen, the only reason why I am not making it public yet is that I gave them one last chance to pay. I warned them that if they fail to do so by the end of this week, I will share their name (BTW, the owner of the agency is registered with this site and probably follows this thread), and the whole saga, with the payment lists and not only. Their local chamber of commerce might also have a saying in this regard, to begin with. Debt collectors might also be interested by the issue. And the... See more Hello Steffen, the only reason why I am not making it public yet is that I gave them one last chance to pay. I warned them that if they fail to do so by the end of this week, I will share their name (BTW, the owner of the agency is registered with this site and probably follows this thread), and the whole saga, with the payment lists and not only. Their local chamber of commerce might also have a saying in this regard, to begin with. Debt collectors might also be interested by the issue. And there are other ways as well. It is not the amount I am concerned with - as I already said, it is a rather small one -but the principle. I am all against creating dangerous precedents. Shall keep you posted! ▲ Collapse
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 19:24
French to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | Hi Karin, can I quote you on that? | Feb 7, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:09, kadamczyk wrote:
In my opinion, and from what other colleagues have said, it is normal to expect to spend approximately 1 hour per 1,000 words in revision -- ALWAYS. Obviously this depends on the difficulty of the text, how much specific terminology is involved, how much reference info and help is provided, etc., etc.
It sounds to me like this agency is saying they should not have h... See more
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:09, kadamczyk wrote:
In my opinion, and from what other colleagues have said, it is normal to expect to spend approximately 1 hour per 1,000 words in revision -- ALWAYS. Obviously this depends on the difficulty of the text, how much specific terminology is involved, how much reference info and help is provided, etc., etc.
It sounds to me like this agency is saying they should not have had to revise at all.
How can an agency worth its salt submit work to a client without checking it? This is true whether an agency is involved or if a translator sub-contracts work.
Good luck!
Karin
Karin, can I quote you on that?
I have an eeriely similar story here, coincidentally happening now.
How can an agency paying 6c per word NOT have the thing proofed before submitting it to a client? And how can he then threaten me with court action because his entire business is down the toilet because of my \"abysmal\" translation? And also, why did he wait a month to tell me that? And why is it that the first page of the doc in question, a page I translated for free as a test a month earlier, was accepted at the time, but is now \'abysmal\'? It\'s enough to make me want to get a job at MacDonald\'s.
Want some fries with that?
Voulez-vous des frites avec votre repas? OH DEAR! He prefers Aimeriez-vous des frites... so I was being abysmal there, wasn\'t I?
So, Karin, may I quote you, anonymously of course, as an agency owner who knows that if your rep is on the line, it\'s worth a few bucks (or cwents) to have someone look it over? And how can you argue that the proofreader has over-corrected, probably because he would have preferred the job for himself, and the easiest way to do this is to make other translators look really bad?
How can synonyms and turns of phrase by corrected and qualified as abysmal?
Help. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Karin Adamczyk (X)
Canada
Local time: 19:24
French to English
Quote:
On 2003-02-07 02:39, NancyLynn wrote:
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:09, kadamczyk wrote:
In my opinion, and from what other colleagues have said, it is normal to expect to spend approximately 1 hour per 1,000 words in revision -- ALWAYS. Obviously this depends on the difficulty of the text, how much specific terminology is involved, how much reference info and help i... See more
Quote:
On 2003-02-07 02:39, NancyLynn wrote:
Quote:
On 2003-02-04 00:09, kadamczyk wrote:
In my opinion, and from what other colleagues have said, it is normal to expect to spend approximately 1 hour per 1,000 words in revision -- ALWAYS. Obviously this depends on the difficulty of the text, how much specific terminology is involved, how much reference info and help is provided, etc., etc.
It sounds to me like this agency is saying they should not have had to revise at all.
How can an agency worth its salt submit work to a client without checking it? This is true whether an agency is involved or if a translator sub-contracts work.
Good luck!
Karin
Karin, may I quote you, anonymously of course, as an agency owner who knows that if your rep is on the line, it\'s worth a few bucks (or cwents) to have someone look it over?
Absolutely and it doesn\'t need to be anonymous.
Do people have work printed without someone proofreading the final material? Of course not! All professionals know that revision is a critical part of the translation process.
There isn\'t anything wrong with changes made to reflect preferences, but such changes should not be interpreted as \'corrections\'.
Good luck,
Karin ▲ Collapse
| | | | | In general, you have to assume that clients and agencies are stupid, not really bad.. | Feb 18, 2003 |
I recently had a similar case, from which I could learn the following:
1. The end client expects a perfect product.
2. The agencies between you and the end client promise a perfect product and charge the client for translate, edit, proof, plus sometimes special required skills (technical or style).
3. You translate the text.
4. The agencies forget the editing, because everything went fine so far, and simply pass the text to the next.
5... See more I recently had a similar case, from which I could learn the following:
1. The end client expects a perfect product.
2. The agencies between you and the end client promise a perfect product and charge the client for translate, edit, proof, plus sometimes special required skills (technical or style).
3. You translate the text.
4. The agencies forget the editing, because everything went fine so far, and simply pass the text to the next.
5. The unedited and unreviewed text does not stand the last proofreading.
6. The client asks for a discount of X%.
7. The agency passes this to the translator.
Now what to do?
In cases in which you can imagine, that the end client will not be totally satisfied with your untouched translation, simply ask the agency (by email!!), whether you should also mediate editing, proofreading and special skills, or only translate.
(Of course, these extra steps require extra time, organisation and costs -> rates.)
If you forgot to ask this accepting the project, you can still mention on delivering, that the text has only been translated and might need editing, proofreading and special skills.
Now the problem should be vanished,
because the surprise is anticipated.
Take care,
Harry
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